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Re: Torture?


quote:

SuXuemei wrote:

If you really believe that we are no better than the terrorists when we use waterboarding and such to get info out of them to thwart their attacks, how would you have justified the deaths caused from the attacks that would not have been stopped?



quote:

John Dej wrote:

The ends do not always justify the means.



I didn't think it was very fair of you to make John repeat himself. emoticon

Last edited by Somefinnishperson, 4/26/2009, 5:08 am


---
"But someone's going to help those people, right?"
"That's not important right now, Stan, now we need to find out who's fault this is."

4/26/2009, 5:07 am Link to this post Send Email to Somefinnishperson   Send PM to Somefinnishperson
 
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Re: Torture?


Well, you quoted it yourself. He said, "The ends do not always justify the means" (emphasis mine). He didn't specify in which instances he believes the ends do justify the means.

I don't believe John Dej is one of those people that just believes whatever they're going to believe without any reason behind it; he is clearly more intelligent than that. But often he uses broad, general statements when he posts, which don't really advance the discussion. And if there's anywhere you would explain and defend what you think (just for fun), I would think it would be a discussion forum labeled "opinions." If he doesn't want to specify and explain, that's fine. But on a forum labeled "opinions," you can't blame me for trying, no?
5/5/2009, 7:54 pm Link to this post Send Email to SuXuemei   Send PM to SuXuemei
 
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Re: Torture?


Actually, that is intentional. I want people to use that device between their ears. I want people to try to assume what I mean by being vague in hopes it will generate more people talking.

I am against torture, 100% of the time.

How can we criticize North Korea for torturing POWs when we are doing the same thing?

Standards are set by the organization we are part of. By being part of any organization, be it club or country, we accept the guidelines established by it.

The United States is suppose to be above that, and thus, since I am still a willing member of the United States, I uphold its standards.

If you knew that killing an individual would save thousands or even tens of thousands of lives, would you kill him? I couldn't.
5/6/2009, 6:12 am Link to this post Send Email to John DeJ   Send PM to John DeJ
 
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Re: Torture?


I disagree, John - I think being vague stunts discussion rather than stimulates it. But when you get into the details and debate the subtleties, nuances, and competing considerations of the issues - that's the good stuff! And forcing people to assume what you mean when you're vague does not force them to think - it forces them to intuit.

I agree that it matters how we treat people, but I would still say you can't consider it in a vacuum. There are plenty of situations whereby an act of omission (failing to coerce information) causes an inability to prevent the deaths of thousands. If that is allowed, then the person who made that choice failed in their duty to defend the people that were killed. And let's not forget that the coerced individual in question actively caused those deaths; we're not talking about some random individual going about his business.
5/6/2009, 11:57 pm Link to this post Send Email to SuXuemei   Send PM to SuXuemei
 
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Re: Torture?


Oh - before I forget. How can we criticize North Korea? WWII-era Japan, Germany, and England? ](see England here)

We do it only when we need to to save our own; if we do it when we don't need to, that's bad. The other nations we have criticized do it when there is no reason to do so; for fun and games as far as I can tell.
5/7/2009, 9:20 am Link to this post Send Email to SuXuemei   Send PM to SuXuemei
 
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Re: Torture?


That is the "ends justify the means" methodology. I cannot accept it.

According to the released documents, our government didn't try anything else. They assumed normal techniques would not work and immediately went to waterboarding. Sometimes up to four times a day for more than half a year.

Now, call me crazy, but attempting to simulate drowning someone four times a day for 245 days in a row is wrong.
5/8/2009, 3:04 pm Link to this post Send Email to John DeJ   Send PM to John DeJ
 
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Re: Torture?


No, that's not what the documents said.

Do you really see no ethical weight in what you allow to happen by failure to act?
5/8/2009, 6:36 pm Link to this post Send Email to SuXuemei   Send PM to SuXuemei
 
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Re: Torture?


Actually, the documents show one prisoner had worse. Read the actual monster document.

For me, you can't justify it. Even for Hitler, which is considered one of the most evil people in history.
5/9/2009, 2:09 pm Link to this post Send Email to John DeJ   Send PM to John DeJ
 
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Re: Torture?


Well, my point was that I believe it's only ok if we have reason to believe we can extract information to save people. It's not ok for vengeance.

Let's put this another way - so far our discussion has accepted as the situation:

means: torture captive to extract information
ends: use said information to save lives

Let's rephrase this -

means: thousands of innocent people die (who may not necessarily have consented to die)
ends: those of us responsible for their safety can claim we took the moral high ground

It's just a matter of what you look at as what is the means vs. what is the ends. "The ends doesn't justify the means," when used improperly, does not give the appropriate weight to the ethical considerations in play. We were only allowed to waterboard when we had reason to believe we could stop something imminent.
5/9/2009, 6:44 pm Link to this post Send Email to SuXuemei   Send PM to SuXuemei
 
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Re: Torture?


I know it isn't a popular concept, but I couldn't willfully torture another person - ever. Not to save my own life, my family, or the entire world.
5/10/2009, 2:08 pm Link to this post Send Email to John DeJ   Send PM to John DeJ
 


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