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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


[edited out by Dusk]

Last edited by Dusky Beauty, 5/26/2009, 3:18 pm


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bambi711 Profile
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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


SuXuemei- good response. That is why I thought we have a free will to either choose or reject God. If we don't have the freedom to choose Him or not, then we don't know if we serve God out of love or force.

However, your interpretation from Brandon's blanket example is not correct. In Brandon's, the rude homeless person didn't left the house, becuase he didn't want to follow the rule, but rather, got kicked of the house by the owner.

Other than that, good point.
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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


That's actually a great analogy SuXuemei. But I will say that God doesn't just "allow" us to do evil, but makes us vessels of evil or good. For instance, using your example, Ox, Stag and Mort can do nothing outside myself willing them to do something. Say, for instance, that Staghorn goes and crushes Hat. Yeah, that's an evil act. The fans will get mad and everyone will hate Stag. Stag will suffer the consequences. But I'm the one who ultimately decided that Hat would die and by Staghorn's hands. I decided why, how and when it would happen, even though it appears that Stag did so out of his own cruel intentions.

So God is good--there is nothing good outside God. And yet tragedies occur because God not only simply allows them to occur, but wills them to occur. How, then, can God be good? He can be--and is--but we have a poor understanding of what is "good". We think "good" is anything that makes us happy, prolongs our life, and keeps us from death. God thinks of "good" as being free from sin, being righteous, serving God, worshiping God and proclaiming his name. Therefore anything, including life, that gets in the way of that is not good. God, therefore, in order to be good causes things to happen that, to us, look and feel bad, but are really, in the greater scheme of things, good.

All we can do is just trust God and love God when these "bad" things happen, knowing that God is good and that he loves us. If we demand to know from God why he does every little thing, we will be trying to make him answer to us--effectively making ourselves god--instead of being the humble servants God wants us to be.

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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


A primary scripture example of bad things happening to good people that love God would be Job... but then, it was actually Satan as a person that caused all the bad things to happen. God allowed it however because he knew Job would withstand it, and that God had the ability to restore everything to him and more.

In that example, God made Satan, not originally evil, but with all the pride and enough will of his own to rebel. Yet his nature and purpose as a Cherub was to serve the Lord. The angels that rebelled with him must have been designed in such a way as to fulfill the roles they do now.
In that field of play I agree with you completely Brandon, but the rules of free will for angels and human beings are different. Hence the need for humanity, and why our love and devotion is cherished above theirs. Different enough for you to be wrong? Dunno.

Last edited by Dusky Beauty, 5/5/2009, 9:52 am


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UO: Reatha Starfell, CoH: Dusk Fairchild, WoW: Qurr, Pursia, Flaire, WAR: Dusk Starfelle
5/5/2009, 9:44 am Link to this post Send Email to Dusky Beauty   Send PM to Dusky Beauty ICQ AIM
 
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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


I agree that our concept of the infinite good that is God is not complete; such is the nature of the human condition.

However, why is it necessary that everything that happens and everything that humans do is a deliberate act of God? Lucifer knew exactly what his choice was, consequences and all, and he still rejected God. I think this is an example that humans, too, can know full well (or well enough) what they are choosing when they reject God ... and still do it anyway. I would argue even that Adam and Eve were in that situation, because they were here before this was a fallen world.

This is how I understand it - when original sin happened, it sent a shock wave of corruption throughout the world. This shock wave corrupted our human nature, left the stain of original sin on all our souls (thus the requirement of the sacrament of Baptism in the Catholic tradition), and tainted the whole world in such a way that tragedies happen, both on a micro scale (as with Job) and on a macro scale (hurricanes, disease, etc.). All of this nastiness is the result of that ripple from original sin, as well as all our our evil choices that impact ourselves and those around us in ways that we can't fully see. But on the bright side, our good acts send good ripples out as well; for example, Mother Teresa influenced many lives for good.

Now, this is not to say that God is not ultimately in control. I merely think that aside from some divine touches here and there, he allows us, both individually and as a collective race, to create the state that we live in. Think further of when something bad happened and you could choose to either: 1) wallow in it and be miserable; or 2) choose to be positive and move on. Not saying that #2 is the easier choice or can be achieved with the wave of a wand, but it is the better choice, and once chosen you will see a huge positive impact on your life. I think the same principle applies to the world as a whole.

One last thought - God did say "seek and ye shall find" not "Don't call me, I'll call you," thus implying that finding God is up to us, because the grace of Jesus's death on the cross is sufficient to save us all, even though we won't all make that choice. Brandon, I think that your understanding doesn't give enough credit to the type of creature that the human is; if God has ultimate free will, those of us created in His image have a shadow of that free will and thus the power to choose or reject God as well as impact the world around us.
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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


Hello, 'tis my first time on these forums, but I thought I'd share my understanding on these matters.

I tend to disagree with the notion of double predestination, as it seems to make life rather arbitrary. It also leads to problems involving whether or not God causes evil to occur. Rejecting double predestination does not require a rejection of God's sovereignty however.

First of all, God acts always in perfect, self-giving-and-other-receiving love. This is sometimes termed perichoretic love. This love inevitably involves God limiting or accommodating Himself to us. Through Creation, Fall, and Redemption God reveals Himself, but also limits Himself according to His nature. This is most evident in the incarnation, where the Son is subjected to the finitude and contingency that the flesh entails. If then, God's love is always accommodating, it would also then be the case that God limits Himself, allowing for real, rather than apparent, human free will. Therefore, God can be sovereign in allowing others to possess a will of their own.

As for the notion of the elect, I think it is often used to refer to a select group of individuals, known by God since the foundations of the universe. To think of the elect in such a way tends to lead to a sort of Gnostic elitism in which one cannot help but wonder in reference to salvation, “Why me and not them?” The elect, as I understand it, refers specifically to Christ. He is the elected one of God, and all who are in Him are also elect. Thus, the “elect” does not refer to a fixed number of people, but to all the members of the body of Christ. The universal thrust of salvation can be maintained without making it universalistic.

Anyway, I hope I was clear enough and my ideas didn’t get too entangled in there. In conclusion I would like to add that I concur that I still embrace my Calvinist and Arminian brethren in Christ despite their conflicting ideas.


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5/26/2009, 1:17 pm Link to this post Send Email to Indefatigable   Send PM to Indefatigable
 
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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


Welcome to the forum. Nice to see more folks into the faith discussions.
 emoticon

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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


Predestination from who's view? God is omnipotent. By definition, He knows what we are going to do. He is everywhere, at all times, so yes, He knows what we are going to do, to HIM, it is predestined and it is also history at the same time.

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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


I agree that God foreknows all decisions, but the hardliner Calvinist view, known as double predestination, suggests that God not only foreknows/foreknew who will be saved, but also that in Creation God chose those whom he would save and those whom he would damn. As Brandon has articulated, it holds that God creates some for the purpose of destruction. The view has some Biblical weight, such as the verse about the potter's vessels. However, there are some questions to be raised when one reaches the inevitable conclusion that God originates evil occurrences.

Last edited by Indefatigable, 5/26/2009, 6:51 pm


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If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate. ~Unknown

Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it... ~Galadriel (Film)
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Re: Some Christian analogies of mine


It all boils down to a point of view.

God made Lucifer knowing he'd fall.

God made us knowing which will raise and which will fail.

Thus, if God made us knowing which will not be saved, and He knows everything, then in a sense, he did pick who is saved and who isn't.

As I said, all a point of view.
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